Improving picture quality / compression efficiency of your videos?

Since 6354 Days

Hello "BlimBlim" ;),

recently had a little chat with "Driftwood" and after asking him why you (Gamersyde) are only using Main Profile for your MP4 (H.264/AVC) encodes, he responded that you are actually encoding in WMV only and that the MP4 encodes are basically only re-encodes of the WMV encodes and that they are getting generated automatically by the website and that you ("BlimBlim") created the tools for that ;).

Question:

Why are you using WMV for your original encodes?

Why don't you use x264 (with High Profile and CRF encoding) for your videos instead?

Are you not familiar with x264 or what's the reason for it?

The picture quality of your videos currently doesn't appear to be as good as it could be considering the size of your files. Sometimes it's actually rather quite bad, for both, the WMV encodes and the MP4 re-encodes. No offense though.

So, would there be any chance you could ditch that WMV encoding and then automatic re-encoding to H.264/AVC Main Profile (MP4) process and instead switch to direct x264 (with High Profile and CRF) encoding for your videos?

There are a lot of tools/GUIs available for x264.

One of them would be "HandBrake" for example:

http://handbrake.fr/

It's open source, quite easy to use and available for Windows / Linux / Mac OS X ;).

And on top of that, HandBrake is very good or maybe even the best at converting/encoding FRAPS videos, see for example:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165680

;)

FRAPS videos directly converted/encoded with HandBrake (x264) have much better picture quality in terms of colour/brightness/precision/detail (and compression of course) than what you are currently offering at Gamersyde.

So would there be any chance you could switch to encoding directly with x264 (High Profile and CRF) by using HandBrake for example?

If you could considerably improve the picture quality of your videos at the same file size (or, who knows, maybe even lower file size), that would be quite nice for both you and end-users, wouldn't it ;)?

Could you please at least try it ;)?

It would definitely be appreciated :).

Thanks in advance.

In reply to

Hello "BlimBlim" ;),

recently had a little chat with "Driftwood" and after asking him why you (Gamersyde) are only using Main Profile for your MP4 (H.264/AVC) encodes, he responded that you are actually encoding in WMV only and that the MP4 encodes are basically only re-encodes of the WMV encodes and that they are getting generated automatically by the website and that you ("BlimBlim") created the tools for that ;).

Question:

Why are you using WMV for your original encodes?

Why don't you use x264 (with High Profile and CRF encoding) for your videos instead?

Are you not familiar with x264 or what's the reason for it?

The picture quality of your videos currently doesn't appear to be as good as it could be considering the size of your files. Sometimes it's actually rather quite bad, for both, the WMV encodes and the MP4 re-encodes. No offense though.

So, would there be any chance you could ditch that WMV encoding and then automatic re-encoding to H.264/AVC Main Profile (MP4) process and instead switch to direct x264 (with High Profile and CRF) encoding for your videos?

There are a lot of tools/GUIs available for x264.

One of them would be "HandBrake" for example:

http://handbrake.fr/

It's open source, quite easy to use and available for Windows / Linux / Mac OS X ;).

And on top of that, HandBrake is very good or maybe even the best at converting/encoding FRAPS videos, see for example:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165680

;)

FRAPS videos directly converted/encoded with HandBrake (x264) have much better picture quality in terms of colour/brightness/precision/detail (and compression of course) than what you are currently offering at Gamersyde.

So would there be any chance you could switch to encoding directly with x264 (High Profile and CRF) by using HandBrake for example?

If you could considerably improve the picture quality of your videos at the same file size (or, who knows, maybe even lower file size), that would be quite nice for both you and end-users, wouldn't it ;)?

Could you please at least try it ;)?

It would definitely be appreciated :).

Thanks in advance.

BlimBlim

Since 8318 Days

Hi.

Historically we went for WMV9 because it was the only HD codec that was supported natively by Windows XP. Supporting only mp4 even back then would have been a *much* (I don't think I can put enough emphasis over how much it would have been) easier job than going the WMV route, but since many people didn't want to bother installing a codec pack or ffdshow or whatever, mp4 alone never was an option.

It's a different story now that most people have migrated to Windows 7, and that we have no hope anymore of ever being a mainstream site anyway, so yeah supporting MP4 only would make a lot of sense for many reasons, but it would require rewriting almost all of our reencoding system, and I simply don't have the time nor the motivation to do so, to be fair.

As for the tools, believe me I've spends hundreds of hours on doom9 over the years trying to find ways to encode my stuff more efficiently, so if one of these days I find the time to switch to native mp4, I already know exactly what I'm going to use :)

Also our wmv->mp4 reencoding server is now 5 years old, so going for high profile would make our already much too long encoding times even longer :/

In reply to

Hi.

Historically we went for WMV9 because it was the only HD codec that was supported natively by Windows XP. Supporting only mp4 even back then would have been a *much* (I don't think I can put enough emphasis over how much it would have been) easier job than going the WMV route, but since many people didn't want to bother installing a codec pack or ffdshow or whatever, mp4 alone never was an option.

It's a different story now that most people have migrated to Windows 7, and that we have no hope anymore of ever being a mainstream site anyway, so yeah supporting MP4 only would make a lot of sense for many reasons, but it would require rewriting almost all of our reencoding system, and I simply don't have the time nor the motivation to do so, to be fair.

As for the tools, believe me I've spends hundreds of hours on doom9 over the years trying to find ways to encode my stuff more efficiently, so if one of these days I find the time to switch to native mp4, I already know exactly what I'm going to use :)

Also our wmv->mp4 reencoding server is now 5 years old, so going for high profile would make our already much too long encoding times even longer :/

Blimblim, tyran.

userxyz

Since 6354 Days

Thanks for the reply, although it sounds quite unfortunate ;).

One question though:

Could you please explain the logic behind the following sentence:

Posted by BlimBlim

so yeah supporting MP4 only would make a lot of sense for many reasons, but it would require rewriting almost all of our reencoding system

?

;D

If you would go for one format only, then there would be no need to re-encode anything any longer, wouldn't it ;)?

So there also would be no need to rewrite any re-encoding system or anything like that, wouldn't it?

Or what did you mean?

In reply to

BlimBlim

Since 8318 Days

We have two separate reencoding system:
- The WMV->mp4 (and stream) system, which would be made in part redundant
- The "any format"->wmv, which would have to be changed quite a bit to handle mp4 instead of wmv. This one I spend a lot of time making sure it would accept about any format as input, and wrote a custom wmv encoder that would accept the rather nasty avisynth files the input system would create. It's a rather humongous and fragile mix of linux virtual machine on the front-end/scripting part, and a windows 7 virtual machine for the decoding and encoding part.

I don't doubt I could take x264 and have it accept my input format, and that I could change the various places where I hard encoded the wmv stuff, but I just need the time and motivation, and honestly considering the site might not make it into Q2 2013 financially, finding motivation isn't easy.

In reply to

Blimblim, tyran.

userxyz

Since 6354 Days

Posted by BlimBlim

- The "any format"->wmv, which would have to be changed quite a bit to handle mp4 instead of wmv. This one I spend a lot of time making sure it would accept about any format as input, and wrote a custom wmv encoder that would accept the rather nasty avisynth files the input system would create. It's a rather humongous and fragile mix of linux virtual machine on the front-end/scripting part, and a windows 7 virtual machine for the decoding and encoding part.

Just wondering:

Is something like that actually needed?

Could it be possible that what you just described might be somehow redunant and a little bit overcomplicated?

What input formats do you think of, which tools like HandBrake for example would not accept?

In reply to

BlimBlim

Since 8318 Days

You'd be surprised by the terrible files we get all the time. Quite a few files we get still can't be opened properly by even the latest versions of ffmpeg.

In reply to

Blimblim, tyran.

userxyz

Since 6354 Days

And what kind of file formats would that be?

One could imagine that most of them would probably be H.264/AVC in MP4 or MOV container (encoded with either x264 or QuickTime for example), VC-1 in WMV container, maybe some ProRes in MOV container and last but not least FPS1 (FRAPS) in AVI container? Those would probably not be a big problem, or would they?

Or what else are you thinking of?

In reply to

LEBATO

Since 7698 Days

I liked this conversation, interesting in all fronts, moving on now....

In reply to

Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

BlimBlim

Since 8318 Days

I've been busy this week-end doing some prep work on full mp4 only migration. Got the encoding part down, as far as I can tell, now I need to find time to change all the systems for mp4, like the thumbnail generation system who currently uses a very special version of ffmpeg-php that I created myself and only works for wmv files. I hope to have the first mp4 videos up and running for the AC3 review I'll be doing in about 2 weeks.

In reply to

Blimblim, tyran.

userxyz

Since 6354 Days

Posted by BlimBlim

Awesome :). Thank you very much ;).

Just wondering:

Posted by BlimBlim

Got the encoding part down

What x264 settings are you going to use?

And something else:

What are you going to use to decode/convert FRAPS videos before encoding them with x264?

According to the following two threads over there for example:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165680

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155772

it apparently can make quite a big difference in terms of picture quality depending on how FRAPS videos are getting decoded/converted.

So what are you going to use to decode/convert them ;)?

In reply to

[quote=BlimBlim]I've been busy this week-end doing some prep work on full mp4 only migration. Got the encoding part down, as far as I can tell, now I need to find time to change all the systems for mp4, like the thumbnail generation system who currently uses a very special version of ffmpeg-php that I created myself and only works for wmv files. I hope to have the first mp4 videos up and running for the AC3 review I'll be doing in about 2 weeks.[/quote]

Awesome :). Thank you very much ;).

Just wondering:

[quote=BlimBlim]Got the encoding part down[/quote]

What x264 settings are you going to use?

And something else:

What are you going to use to decode/convert FRAPS videos before encoding them with x264?

According to the following two threads over there for example:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165680

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155772

it apparently can make quite a big difference in terms of picture quality depending on how FRAPS videos are getting decoded/converted.

So what are you going to use to decode/convert them ;)?

BlimBlim

Since 8318 Days

Right now we use avisynth/avisource with no plan for changes.

In reply to

Blimblim, tyran.

userxyz

Since 6354 Days

Thanks for your reply.

But why didn't you answer what x264 settings you are planning to use ;)?

Posted by BlimBlim

Right now we use avisynth/avisource with no plan for changes.

That might not necessarily be ideal.

The PC videos on Gamersyde, which you apparently captured with FRAPS, currently all seem to be quite messed up in terms of colour for example.

You can easily check that by yourself by doing the following for example:

Take a look at the following videos over there for example (again, just some examples of the many PC video captures you did with FRAPS in the last couple months):

First example:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_diablo...

Second example:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_pc_videos_from_t...

Now take a closer look at the red coloured orb in the lower left corner of the screen (the one that resembles the players health status).

Now compare this red colour with the red colour in the following corresponding screenshots for example (randomly found via search engine):

First example:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3189848...

Second example:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3779932...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3779933...

Do you notice how the red health orb in the lower left corner of the screen (the one that resembles the players health status) actually is red in the screenshots, while the health orb in the Gamersyde videos is almost orange ;o?

Or with other words: do you notice how the colours in the Gamersyde videos are wrong ;)?

That apparently does not happen if you use HandBrake for example for converting/encoding FRAPS videos with x264.

Which is also described in the following thread for example:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165680

The sharpness is also better when using HandBrake.

According to that thread, HandBrake apparently uses "libswscale" for that.

So, would there be any chance you could somehow adapt this in some way for Gamersyde when dealing with FRAPS videos, so that your PC videos would no longer have wrong colours and reduced sharpness?

It would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance ;).

In reply to

Thanks for your reply.

But why didn't you answer what x264 settings you are planning to use ;)?

[quote=BlimBlim]Right now we use avisynth/avisource with no plan for changes.[/quote]

That might not necessarily be ideal.

The PC videos on Gamersyde, which you apparently captured with FRAPS, currently all seem to be quite messed up in terms of colour for example.

You can easily check that by yourself by doing the following for example:

Take a look at the following videos over there for example (again, just some examples of the many PC video captures you did with FRAPS in the last couple months):

First example:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_diablo_iii-12829_en.html

Second example:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_pc_videos_from_torchlight_ii-13408_en.html

Now take a closer look at the red coloured orb in the lower left corner of the screen (the one that resembles the players health status).

Now compare this red colour with the red colour in the following corresponding screenshots for example (randomly found via search engine):

First example:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31898486&postcount=8450

Second example:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37799320&postcount=4610
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37799335&postcount=4611

Do you notice how the red health orb in the lower left corner of the screen (the one that resembles the players health status) actually is red in the screenshots, while the health orb in the Gamersyde videos is almost orange ;o?

Or with other words: do you notice how the colours in the Gamersyde videos are wrong ;)?

That apparently does not happen if you use HandBrake for example for converting/encoding FRAPS videos with x264.

Which is also described in the following thread for example:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165680

The sharpness is also better when using HandBrake.

According to that thread, HandBrake apparently uses "libswscale" for that.

So, would there be any chance you could somehow adapt this in some way for Gamersyde when dealing with FRAPS videos, so that your PC videos would no longer have wrong colours and reduced sharpness?

It would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance ;).

userxyz

Since 6354 Days

@ "BlimBlim":

Just noticed something else (again):

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_forza_...

"Forza Horizon" is running at 30 fps (29.97 fps), isn't it?

Then why did you encode those videos at 60 fps (59.94 fps) ;o?

You are wasting picture quality/bitrate with that, don't you think?

This apparently has not just happened with those recent "Forza Horizon" videos mentioned above.

Some more recent examples:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_wrc_3-...

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_reside...

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_the_wr...

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_transf...

Again, just some recent examples, there probably are more.

All those games/examples mentioned above are running at 30 fps (29.97 fps) on consoles, but you encoded the videos at 60 fps (59.94 fps) ;o?

Why ;)?

That simply doesn't make much sense, don't you think ;)?

True 60 fps videos are nice of course. But why encode at 60 fps when the game/the footage is only running at 30 fps ;)?

So, would there be any chance you could do something about that, so you would no longer waste picture quality/bitrate in such cases?

It would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance ;).

In reply to

@ "BlimBlim":

Just noticed something else (again):

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_forza_horizon-13486_en.html

"Forza Horizon" is running at 30 fps (29.97 fps), isn't it?

Then why did you encode those videos at 60 fps (59.94 fps) ;o?

You are wasting picture quality/bitrate with that, don't you think?

This apparently has not just happened with those recent "Forza Horizon" videos mentioned above.

Some more recent examples:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_wrc_3-13471_en.html

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_resident_evil_6-13434_en.html

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_the_wrc_3_demo-13339_en.html

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_our_videos_of_transformers_foc-13237_en.html

Again, just some recent examples, there probably are more.

All those games/examples mentioned above are running at 30 fps (29.97 fps) on consoles, but you encoded the videos at 60 fps (59.94 fps) ;o?

Why ;)?

That simply doesn't make much sense, don't you think ;)?

True 60 fps videos are nice of course. But why encode at 60 fps when the game/the footage is only running at 30 fps ;)?

So, would there be any chance you could do something about that, so you would no longer waste picture quality/bitrate in such cases?

It would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance ;).

BlimBlim

Since 8318 Days

No.

In reply to

Blimblim, tyran.

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